Tasers
Mike Welsh - 2CC Interviews ACT Chief Police Officer Audrey Fagan
Friday 30 September 2005
Mike Welsh: The ACT Chief Police Officer is Audrey Fagan. She is on the line. Good afternoon Audrey.
Audrey Fagan: Good afternoon Mike.
Mike Welsh: Twice in one week.
Audrey Fagan: Indeed.
Mike Welsh: They will be talking tonight, you know. Now the stun or the Taser; is the Taser a stun gun and it's the same thing?
Audrey Fagan: We call them the Taser X26.
Mike Welsh: Is the Taser a brand name or…?
Audrey Fagan: Taser is the actual name of the device and the brand and we refer to it, a little bit like OC Spray is Oleoresin Capsicum Spray; we always use the complete title.
Mike Welsh: All right, I see, I'm with you there. Now, there's been some criticism of it initially with the various demonstrations in the ACT and the use of it, but now today there are concerns in regard to whether or not it is safe because the information used by the AFP to get these into action is probably tainted because of the conflict of interest with the person who gave the information.
Audrey Fagan: Mike, I wanted to just talk about that a little bit as far as the trial itself. In ACT Policing we are trialling the Taser X26. The device would be trialled for 12 months when we will evaluate it. The research that we've done comes from doctors, engineers, other experts from here in Australia, in the UK and the US. So there's a number of researchers; it's not limited to one and I think that's important. We're trialling it as are all State and Territory forces in Australia who are either using or trialling the Taser.
Mike Welsh: News stories running today in the newspapers as well say the US researcher hired to report on the effectiveness of these has a financial interest in the company who's made them. You were saying to me there were others sought to give information as well, or have input as well.
Audrey Fagan: That's precisely right and as I said we've gone to a number of sources. Our work started about four years ago. Our staff went over to the UK initially, we've had some research here in Australia and some in the US, so there's a mixture there and we're trialling it absolutely operationally here in Canberra. That's what we're doing and I think we should let that trial run.
Mike Welsh: For 12 months?
Audrey Fagan: Exactly. Then we evaluate through our Operational Safety Committee.
Mike Welsh: How often do you get to discharge the Taser because it's not something you use every weekend is it? It's something you need to have some sort of a demo or a crowd on New Year's Eve for example to test its effectiveness, don't you?
Audrey Fagan: The use of the Taser is in high-risk potentially, life-threatening situations and I don't like going into the technical jargon but it's obviously a step down from lethal force. We would much prefer, where a police officer's involved in a situation that's dangerous, that people comply with verbal requests. But you see, we to have those other devices in order to bring potential offenders to justice, so we're exercising our lawful charter as police officers.
Mike Welsh: Okay so if you didn't have them, give me an idea, what's the next measure at hand for a police officer, if they don't have Tasers? What's the next best thing then, if you like?
Audrey Fagan: It's difficult in that situation. I mean it's about a judgement call. We've got a line of use of force continuum and it always starts where possible with talking to a person; obviously we've got a firearm and that's the full end of the scale. We trust our officers in their training, using the Commissioner's Orders to make those operational judgements. So it's not linear, Mike, it's something that you have to make a judgement about at the time.
Mike Welsh: Now, Victoria doesn't use them, Tasmania use them?
Audrey Fagan: No actually every state and territory have them in use or are trialling in Australia. So I think that's outdated reporting actually.
Mike Welsh: Okay, well I'll have to take you on your word for that; it's information we got through today. So is this the reason why everyone's got to have them or you've got the consider them? Obviously you didn't just pop up one Monday morning and say: "Well listen, we need some of those Tasers; get a half dozen of those" did you?
Audrey Fagan: Not at all. As I said at the outset we've been researching this for some four years. I can recall reports in 2003 with the research and I know our officers went back some four years with their work and it's very limited; it's our Special Response and Security area and a tactical group within that. They're highly trained officers who are doing the trial for us.
Mike Welsh: So how many do you have?
Audrey Fagan: There are six officers with Tasers in SRS's Tactical Response.
Mike Welsh: Do they have to be trained to use it in particular?
Audrey Fagan: Absolutely. We've had our officers trained as instructors and in turn we've got six Tasers. We've got six deployed here so that's what we've done and it's very small numbers but it's appropriate that we have a clear trial on this and assess it for what's right for policing in our community.
Mike Welsh: Okay, so separate from incidents which arise where there's a major mob causing trouble but things you can plan for such as New Year's Eve in Civic; would there be those six on the belts of officers that night?
Audrey Fagan: Mike, here's what happened last year at New Year's Eve: the trial started in December last year so those officers would have been - and I don't have the absolute details - would have been available on duty then, so we've already been through one New Year's Eve. This isn't about being alarmist; this is actually about potentially life-threatening situations as they might appear and having a trial and seeing how this device works.
Mike Welsh: But you see my point before. You don't know if it works like a shark suit; you need to go down there to see if the shark bites, you don't you.
Audrey Fagan: Oh I see, I see where you're going.
Mike Welsh: I understand the police officers' safety is a priority.
Audrey Fagan: Police officers have been exposed to it, if that's what you mean, and you know I've seen a demonstration of it. This is a non-lethal option and it's for life threatening situations. There's been an example here in Canberra, and I can't go into operational details but where we have allegedly a knife held to somebody; we've disabled that person, no harm to the victim very importantly, no harm to the alleged offender and no harm to police. That's a good scenario all round. I'd much prefer to be able to talk to somebody but sometimes that doesn't happen for our officers.
Mike Walsh: Well again, I don't know how far operational measures go. What you can tell me, but if it's drawn, if it's used, is it used with a warning as well, I mean; it's clearly not a gun but if you say to someone if your officer has to draw it and say I'm giving you another warning, I've drawn this and I'll use it, or once it's drawn, it's used?
Audrey Fagan: The basic tenet of all our training is verbal command so it will be "stop what you're doing"; you know commands will go out with directions and we would very much like people to comply.
Mike Walsh: They'll be told that the Taser will be used if they don't comply?
Audrey Fagan: Each operational situation has verbal direction as the first tenet and it's really important that we do that Mike; it's much more my preference to be in that situation.
Mike Walsh: All right, so it was used. At least that you're able to tell me about that.
Audrey Fagan: There have been 330 times that we've been on patrol with the Tasers on the officers' belts and on three occasions they've been activated. In 10 months of the 12 month trial.
Mike Welsh: All right. Good to talk to you Audrey.
Audrey Fagan: Thank you.
Mike Welsh: Appreciate your time.
Audrey Fagan: Ok, thank you very much.
Mike Welsh: Audrey Fagan's the ACT Chief Police Officer and clearly the force are keen to dispel some of the fears of the Tasers. There are another couple of months to go on that test but one of the major concerns was that the research done was by a person from the United States who had a financial interest in the company which makes them, therefore well, you don't need to have that explained to you as well. But you've got to consider the situation that police officers in situations where there is a mob and they've got to consider their own safety as well.
Ends//