New ACT Policing Chief Police Officer
Ross Solly ABC 666 interview with Chief Police Officer Michael Phelan
Thursday 14 September 2007
Ross Solly: It’s a Thursday morning, good to be with you, Thursday the 13th of September. Gee we’ve got a busy final half hour at the breakfast program coming your way. We’re going to meet our new Chief Police Officer, he’s going to join us here in the studio.
News
Ross Solly: This is triple six breakfast, my name is Ross Solly. We have a new Chief Police Officer, a man with very impressive policing pedigree indeed. He actually doesn’t start the new job until Monday so for now, let’s call him Assistant Commissioner Michael Phelan, good morning to you.
Michael Phelan: Good morning Ross.
Ross Solly: Thank you for coming in this morning.
Mike Phelan: My pleasure.
Ross Solly: Congratulations as well.
Mike Phelan: Thank you. I must say that it’s something that I’m looking forward to Monday very much. It’s something I’m really looking forward to working with the Canberra community on.
Ross Solly: Did you apply for the job or were you sought out?
Mike Phelan: I applied. I applied for the job.
Ross Solly: What is it about the job that interested you, that attracted you?
Mike Phelan: At the end of the day I’ve got a long time to go in the AFP, I’ve got another 19 years to go. I’ve been Assistant Commissioner now for three and a half years, and I see this as just another part of my development as a police officer. And also something I can give back to the Canberra community. You know, I’m a Canberra resident now and I will be for a long period of time and I see it as another way of me contributing personally.
Ross Solly: As I mentioned in the introduction, you have a very impressive pedigree, it goes back for a couple of generations, the Phelan link with the police force, on both sides actually; or on your wife’s side as well I understand?
Mike Phelan: On my mother’s side and my father’s side. Yes, it does look like I was destined to do nothing else doesn’t it? It started way back in the 1800’s when my great-great grandfather was a mounted trooper in Victoria Police, then my grandfather was with the Victoria Police and my father was AFP.
Ross Solly: Your great-great grandfather wasn’t out against the Kelly gang by any chance was he?
Mike Phelan: I’ve actually tried to do a little bit of research on that and no I’ve never had any evidence of it, but well, he was responsible though for all of Gippsland east of Toongabbie so…
Ross Solly: He would’ve had a few bushrangers to deal with then no doubt.
Mike Phelan: Oh no doubt.
Ross Solly: So yep, so there was he and then what was the next in line after?
Mike Phelan: Then my grandfather was with the Victoria Police during the Second World War. Then my father joined the Commonwealth Police in the mid 60’s, which of course was the forerunner for the AFP once it was amalgamated with the ACT Police in ’79 and he retired only about 10 years ago now. And of course on my mother’s side, her father was a police officer in Holland.
Ross Solly: Wow, okay well you certainly know your way around the traps then.
Mike Phelan: Well they do at least.
Ross Solly: Yeah, tell me something, what will the AFP look like under your stewardship? The reason I ask this is that you’d be aware that in recent times there’s been some criticism maybe that the community’s been left a little bit in the dark about some information and some of that has been operational reasons, but there’s also been a suggestion that maybe the police have not tried to scare the community too much, what’s your view on all of that and will that change or do you think that’s the right approach?
Mike Phelan: I went on record yesterday saying that the approach that I have is very much one of being open. Now at the end of the day, really in basic terms, so long as operational integrity is not breached, for security reasons or for some sort of legislative constraints and I’m more than happy to share as much as we can with the media. Because, the way I see it is by sharing with the media, I’m sharing with the community. At the end of the day, the community have a right to know what’s going on and as I said, so long as it doesn’t breach any operational integrity, then I believe we have an obligation to tell as many people what’s going on. It’s a two-way street. I think if the community has confidence in us; that we’re willing to communicate with them, then hopefully they’ll be a little bit more forthcoming communicating with us, and really that’s the forerunner to preventing crime right at its root.
Ross Solly: A couple of other issues which you will be confronted with, do you believe that the AFP as it stands at the moment is adequately resourced?
Mike Phelan: Look, at this point in time yes I do. Obviously I’ll have my incoming brief when I come into the position on Monday. But I’ve had a lot to do with performance and planning with the wider AFP, and so I’m very much attuned to our workforce planning issues and where all our agents are and all our people on the road. And as an organisation that is heading towards 7000 people, a large percentage of that are based here in Canberra and at the moment I believe that the Canberra community are well served by them and the numbers that we do have.
Ross Solly: Did you seek any assurances from the police minister, Mr Corbell, that you would get more resources or when that would be, that you’d have an open line to him if you did require more resources, that he would look favourably upon that?
Mike Phelan: Oh look very much the communications I had with the Minister at the moment are very much about communication, in that he will listen to me and I will obviously talk to him about what’s going on. But it would be unfair of me to make any sort of assessment at this stage. But once I get my feet under the desk, that’s certainly one of the things I’ll be looking at. And really, when you talk about numbers and policing, it’s what the community expects and it’s where you put the people, and how you use them. That’s the more effective way of doing business. And you look at for example the Suburban Policing Strategy that the late Audrey Fagan introduced, it’s actually created a fourfold increase in the number of proactive patrols that our police officers are actually doing on the beat. Now, if that happens, which it has, then the people get to and the community get to see our police more often, feel confident to talk to them and we’ve seen the crime stats come down and they’ve been the lowest they have for five years.
Ross Solly: So that will remain, the more police on the beat, the more police being seen out and about on the street?
Mike Phelan: One of my highest priorities is higher visibility. I think if people see their police they feel confident in their police, and they feel confident about going about their day to day business without fear of crime.
Ross Solly: Jim Torr, who’s the head of the police union here in Canberra was on Louise Maher’s program yesterday. He said that one of the key issues you’re going to face is resourcing. He believes that we’re a couple hundred officers maybe, or maybe not that many, short here in the ACT. Have you had a meeting with Jim at this stage, are you aware that that’s the feeling? I mean, you’ve been in Canberra for a while.
Mike Phelan: Look, I know Jim, I know Jim very well and it’s a union’s job to try and get as many more people as they can on the road, not withstanding they’ll get some more members about it. But I’ll have discussions and forward and frank discussions with the union over time and my job as well is to liaise with the union. If they have genuine legitimate concerns then I’ll listen to them. I can’t necessarily say I’ll act on what they want but certainly I’ll be listening to them, as I’ll be listening to lots of other people.
Ross Solly: Am I right in saying you were once the head of the police association?
Mike Phelan: I was yes. Yeah I was national secretary between 1998 and 2000.
Ross Solly: So it would be with some sympathy that you would listen to their concerns then?
Mike Phelan: Yeah, absolutely. But also it’s about where you put your resources. So my stewardship at the association was about getting more resources for the AFP generally and a lot of those resources came not necessarily in salary dollars but came in greater supplier costs so that our people had the technological advances available to them to do their job better.
Ross Solly: One of the other issues that Jim Torr raised, and certainly the Opposition here in the ACT is very keen on this as well, that is the ability to hand out on-the-spot fines. What’s your position on that?
Mike Phelan: It would be fair to say that I haven’t formed a view on that yet. Like anything, any issues I’m willing to look at all options and avenues that are available. So once I do get my feet under the desk, these are the sort of things that I’ll be looking at. And anything that streamlines the burden on our people, and also for the community is a good thing but I can’t make any specific comment on that because I’d have to look at any proposals that go forward.
Ross Solly: That’s the argument, isn’t it, that if you were able to hand out on-the-spot fines you would free up resources. It does apparently tie up a lot of your officers’ work having to deal with all of this, and it takes some time and it’s a bit of a hassle really.
Mike Phelan: Possibly, but I mean on-the-spot fines, depending what sort of offences, are a very subjective type of topic. There are some things – traffic and so on – that it’s quite appropriate you have on-the-spot for. However, there are other things, criminal type offences that really, are matters that go before the court and everybody, I think, has a right to go before the court and sometimes on-the-spot notices actually inhibit one’s desire to go to court and actually have their say, and they can dispense with matters without having to do that.
Ross Solly: One of the regular concerns that’s raised on this program about the Territory at the moment is what’s happening in Civic and there seems to be a fair bit of concern that crime down there is becoming, you know, I use the word rampant, that’s probably the wrong word, but there are a lot of people out there who are saying that they’re scared to go into Civic now, that they find it a very threatening sort of a place. What are you going to do about Civic?
Mike Phelan: This is what I was talking about before as well; it’s about greater visibility. If people can see the police and people feel confident that they can walk through because the police are around, then these situations will improve in themselves and, personally I think some of these areas require some greater visibility of police and that’s something that has worked with the Suburban Policing Strategy, something I’ll continue.
Ross Solly: So you’ll put more people in Civic?
Mike Phelan: No, I want to have a good look at it. Civic’s not the only place in Canberra, there are a lot of other places that we need to look at as well and it will be a matter of priority. You know there are resources that need to be required for all different things, and we need to make sure we get the balance right.
Ross Solly: It’s 18 to nine on Triple six breakfast, you’re with Ross Solly, my guest this morning is Assistant Commissioner Michael Phelan who from Monday will be the ACT’s new Chief Police Officer.
You are the former AFP National Manager of Border and International Investigation. Under your watch of course the Bali 9 were arrested, and the case was mounted against the Bali 9. Some of them are still facing the death penalty, how does that sit with you these days?
Mike Phelan: If you go back to the actual decision that was made, it’s a matter of public record how the decision was made, and which ultimately rested with me to give the information over the Indonesians to request surveillance on the targets over there. And I have said before, given the same set of circumstances I wouldn’t change my mind, and I haven’t changed my opinion again, still even with what we know now. It’s a tragic set of circumstances that people are facing the death penalty and that they’ve been sentenced to death, but also on the other side of that is we have an obligation to stop heroin coming into the country, and we’ll do everything and certainly the AFP will do everything it can to try and stop that and, you know these things are done, there’s transnational crime investigations, they work on the free flow of intelligence both ways. If we were to stop the flow of intelligence going to Indonesia they would stop the flow of intelligence coming to us and that would have devastating effects for all of us.
Ross Solly: Do you sometimes think about it though? Do you wonder how you might feel if that day comes when someone will go before the firing squad, how you might feel on that day?
Mike Phelan: Oh I do. You know, I think about it. Look it might sound a little bit difficult coming from me, but I’ve been opposed to the death penalty. But I’m also in favour of upholding the law as it stands and, you know, there’s a responsibility for the greater community to make sure that substances like heroin which kill countless, hundreds of people, don’t come into the country. And yes when the day comes, it’ll weigh heavily on my mind, but then again, that’s the burden that goes with the job; that’s why government pays us to make decisions and that’s what we have to do. But the ones I feel the most sympathy for though, are the families, definitely, and I’ve said that before; it’s a tragic set of circumstances and if we could all wind back the clock we’d rather – not that I wouldn’t change the decision but rather they wouldn’t have gone over there in the first place to bring the heroin back – that’s how far back I’d take the clock.
Ross Solly: I don’t want to harp on this too much because it’s in the past and we’re looking at your future but, you must have known going into this investigation that there was a chance that if they were arrested that they would face the death penalty.
Mike Phelan: Ah yes, yeah absolutely. We didn’t go into it with our eyes closed. Certainly when the decision was made, and this is all a matter of public record as well, that there was a likelihood that once we asked the Indonesians to conduct surveillance operations that if they did locate narcotics on the people they would arrest them and they wouldn’t let them go, and we wouldn’t do the same here either, by the way.
Ross Solly: And there was no request that maybe because of your involvement that they might look favourably upon not sending them to the firing squad?
Mike Phelan: Well, that’s really, that matter now is up to the government and there are still, you know the government is still making a number of petitions etcetera to the Indonesian authorities. There’s still, I believe, at least another one appeal avenue that’s still open and still more processes to follow that, so you know, this has not ended and I know the government is trying very hard and certainly lobbying with the Indonesian authorities to have the death penalties commuted.
Ross Solly: Well from Monday you’ll have a whole set of new issues to deal with. Lovely to speak to you, I hope this will be the first of many chats over your time as Chief Police Officer here in the ACT. Lovely to meet you this morning, thank you for coming in and good luck with the new gig.
Mike Phelan: Thank you, my pleasure Ross.
Ross Solly: Thank you.
Ends//