Watch house review
Ross Solly – ABC 666 Interview with Chief Police Officer Andy Hughes
Wednesday 27 June 2007
Ross Solly: This is triple six breakfast my name’s Ross Solly, good to be with you on a wet Wednesday morning. Coming up I’ll be joined here in the studio by Acting Police Commissioner Andy Hughes. We’re gonna talk about all sorts of things including watch house operations here in the ACT and we’ll cast our eye over the role of the police in the Northern Territory as well.
News
Ross Solly: You’re with Ross Solly on this Wednesday morning, and I’ve been joined in the studio this morning by ACT interim Chief Police Officer Andy Hughes, good morning.
Andy Hughes: Good morning Ross.
Ross Solly: Thanks for coming in this morning, it’s a bit wet and windy and horrible out there isn’t it.
Andy Hughes: Sure is.
Ross Solly: A good day to let people know to be careful on the roads.
Andy Hughes: Most definitely.
Ross Solly: In a moment we’ll talk about the Ombudsman’s report into Watch House activities here in the ACT but just a couple of other things first of all obviously we’re hearing a lot now about the Prime Minister’s plan for the Northern Territory and the fact that police will be brought from all around the country to head into the Northern Territory, at this stage has there been any request for any ACT-based police?
Andy Hughes: Well I had a brief conversation with the minister, ACT Minister earlier this week. He’s actually in New Zealand at the moment attending the Australasian Police Ministers Council meeting in Wellington. I expect when he comes back there’ll be greater clarity about that. But at this stage we’ve had no direct request through ACT government for ACT Policing commitment.
Ross Solly: Would we be able to provide any police at this short a notice?
Andy Hughes: We’re just waiting to see what, if there is a request from ACT government or you know, that’s transmitted through from the Federal Government and then we’ll need to look at the specifics of the requests, numbers, special skill sets and so on before we can really make a call about whether we could or we couldn’t.
Ross Solly: Are you confident that we have adequately trained officers here in the ACT who could at a moment’s notice head up to the Northern Territory and take on what’s going to be a pretty challenging role?
Andy Hughes: Well there’s no question about the skills and professionalism of ACT Policing members. You know, I’ve been back know for six weeks and absolutely impressed with what I’ve seen. The quality of the work is great and so I think at a general level, we do have a depth of experience and the necessary expertise but, as I said we’d have to wait and see what the request is.
Ross Solly: It would request a special set of skills though wouldn’t it? It would be a situation where many of our officers here in the ACT would never have come across, going into a situation in the Northern Territory, we’ve been hearing reports and again on AM this morning that the fear factor that is now apparent in some of the Aboriginal communities. To send police officers in there, having come from the ACT and other areas where I’m sure that they don’t have to deal with that sort of thing on a day-by-day basis; it’s a challenging role isn’t it?
Andy Hughes: Look I don’t think anyone is doubting that it is a big job. No question of that. But, ACT Policing members and indeed AFP have had considerable experience in difficult environments including recently of course, East Timor, Solomon Islands, and other UN missions over time, we’re in Afghanistan, Sudan, so you know, the track record of AFP and Australian Policing generally in difficult circumstances is very good.
Ross Solly: You yourself are not long back from Fiji, where you spent a very successful period there. How difficult is it to go into a new community a different community that has different situations, different backgrounds and go in there and try and do your job?
Andy Hughes: Well look as I said you know, these roles are always challenging but one thing about Australian Police from my experience is that they are very adaptable, versatile individuals and the skills that you learn in placing in wide range environments within Australia really do assist in adapting to new challenges offshore or indeed, in this case, within Australia.
Ross Solly: I know you said you’ll wait until the minister Simon Corbell gets back but at this stage, have you taken the opportunity to maybe tap a couple of the officers on the shoulders and say you’d better pack a bag, get ready for . . .
Andy Hughes: No we haven’t. It won’t be. The way we deploy is on a voluntary basis, unlike the military where you know soldiers are sort of told where to go. Within policing it’s always been on a voluntary level. So we haven’t tapped anyone on the shoulder and we won’t be tapping anyone on the shoulder.
Ross Solly: Let’s look now at the Ombudsman’s report, initiated by the Federal Police after some complaints and a couple of problems that eventuated in some of the watch houses here in the ACT. Any reading of the Ombudsman’s report has uncovered many, many deficiencies, some of a long-standing nature.
Andy Hughes: Look, the report is very useful; it actually highlights a few things. One of them is that the commitment of many of the officers have been deployed to watch house duties over many years, and the other is the condition and the state of the facilities there is very good - a very high standard - so that’s a very positive thing. But it does also highlight some issues for us including inadequate governance arrangements and support mechanisms, training and so on. So we regard this as a really useful document. There’s 17 recommendations arising from the report, 14 of them are specifically within the purview of ACT Policing management and from those 14 we’ve distilled 63 action items. And what I can tell you is that 25 of them are already complete, we have 33 that are underway and 5 that are still being assessed. So we’ve been monitoring this as it’s been unfolding since well, the review team worked, commenced work in February but the review itself internally, commenced in November. So as all this has been unfolding we’ve been actually implementing this, so we’re well advanced now.
Ross Solly: Were you given the undertaking that you will implement all of the 14 recommendations that come under your.
Andy Hughes: Well as I said there’s actually 63 individual action items arising from the 14 recommendations and we’ve already implemented 25, and 33 are underway. The five that are being assessed you know, until that assessment is complete we can’t commit to those. But in a general level we are committed to implementing the recommendations yes.
Ross Solly: Let’s look at some of the specific concerns that the review found. There are guidelines which people who are working in the watch house were operating under, or were supposed to operating under that the review found were incomplete, inconsistent and out of date.
Andy Hughes: Yes, that’s right.
Ross Solly: How did that happen?
Andy Hughes: Well, I think what’s happened over time is that because of an inadequate governance framework, that the officers - and commendably - took it on themselves to develop their own guidelines and operating principles in the watch house. But yes, they were incomplete, they were ad-hoc in the sense that they weren’t formalised. But that has, I think, at least tracked the watch house through. Let me say as well, there has been some incidents in the watch house, there are some court matters proceeding - obviously I’m not in a position to talk about those - but arising from all of that, the review came about. But over time, you know, for the past five years we’ve had in excess of 30,000 people through the watch house, 30,000 people, and just 200 complaints. Of those 200 complaints only 24 have been substantiated so it’s not as if the place has been an absolute rack and ruin; it’s been operating and functioning and with very, very few complaints arising.
Ross Solly: Some might say there shouldn’t be any complaints though. I mean you have a duty of care.
Andy Hughes: Absolutely correct, that’s always our goal. What we’re trying to achieve here, and the reason there are so many recommendations and action items is that we’re not trying to get the watch house to a level of just adequacy, what we’re doing here is we’re aiming at world’s best practice. That’s why there’s so many recommendations and that’s why we’re so strongly committed to it.
Ross Solly: Do you think the 24, complaints, was it 24 you said that have been proven?
Andy Hughes: Substantiated, yes.
Ross Solly: Substantiated. Is that satisfactory?
Andy Hughes: Well it’s a small number when you consider that there’s been over 30,000 people through the watch house. And these people come in . . . remember, as well, that often these people resent being there; no-one wants to go to the watch house so we’re in an environment where frequently they’re antagonistic towards the police; in many occasions they’re drugged, they’re drunk, they’re delusional and also many cases they’re violent. So it’s remarkable really that we’ve only had 24 substantiated complaints out of over 30,000 people over 5 years.
Ross Solly: You mention no-one wants to go to the watch house. It seems from the Ombudsman’s report that includes police officers don’t want to go to the watch house either. There seems to be a real mindset there. The Ombudsman found that many police don’t regard custodial duties as central to police operations and there seems to be an indication that for many people it was a way of hiding them, keeping them away from the public if they had other problems and they were tucked away to the watch house.
Andy Hughes: It may seem that way. I’ve been in the watch house a couple of times now, as recently as last Friday and the place has changed considerably already and what the report is picking up is where we were earlier this year. But as I said, we’ve really moved on from there.
Ross Solly: So do you think morale has improved? Because the Ombudsman was concerned about the level of morale.
Andy Hughes: No, I’m confident it has improved. We’ve still got a way to go, don’t get me wrong, we’ve still got issues there, we’re looking at the rostering practices, that’s an issue for the staff there, we’re aware of that. And Commander Leanne Close, one of the Deputies is working very actively on that, looking at alternatives to make it more attractive in the watch house.
Ross Solly: So why has morale improved?
Andy Hughes: Well, we’ve got better governance arrangement in place; we’ve got closer supervision; the staff have got a clear understanding of what their role is now. They are aware, of course, of this review so they’ve been monitoring the implementation of the review as it’s been progressing closely and been part of it. We’ve had new staff in there and a change over of some leadership in there so things are looking better now.
Ross Solly: There’s, according to the report, a limited understanding of the duty of care which was required. Especially to at risk or special needs prisoners.
Andy Hughes: We’ve implemented some new measures here; we have an MOU with ACT Mental Health. We have in place now a contract with the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine that provides us with medical practitioners, and we’re developing, we’re in discussions now, with ACT Health for access to nursing, fully quality nursing, when that’s required or requested by detainees. As well as that there’s training package which is near completion now; a three day induction package and that will cover how to identify people in need, people with special needs and so on.
Ross Solly: Some of the recommendations and some of the findings in the report seem . . . well, I’ll say comical, but I don’t know whether that’s right. For example, it found that there was a venetian blind which had been put up in the City Watch House which blocked the view of the officers of at-risk prisoners. I mean, that does seem a little bit bizarre, doesn’t it?
Andy Hughes: Well, that no longer applies. I mean, well the blind’s open so that’s a small matter easily addressed.
Ross Solly: But it seems . . .
Andy Hughes: I don’t know why it was put there in the first place; I wasn’t here at the time but you know, yeah it does seem a little bit unusual, but there may well have been a good reason at the time, but it escapes me, I have to say.
Ross Solly: Yeah, especially when at-risk prisoners, I assume, are the folk that should be being watched all the time.
Andy Hughes: We have Closed Circuit TV which is digital and you know, pretty much state of the art. It receives I guess both complimentary remarks and some criticism in the report.
Ross Solly: Yes, I was going to say it does seem that not many of your officers actually know how it works.
Andy Hughes: We’re going through . . . there’s a training regime now in place and we’re, you know, engaging better with our Audio Video unit to ensure that the thing is properly functional, that there is an understand that we can download and so on. And the tapes, the digital footage, will be monitored from time to time by a Superintendent. We have a new reporting regime as well in terms of that governance side so all of that is massive leaps ahead from where the report was noting. Again, it’s a great report for us, it really is, the independence of it.
Ross Solly: Is it embarrassing this report, do you think?
Andy Hughes: No, I don’t think it is. I mean, we commissioned it. It wasn’t, this wasn’t externally imposed, we, as in ACT Policing, approached the Ombudsman’s office to join us on the review. And look, the review is quite factual, it calls it as it is, and that’s what you want from a review. We don’t want a window dressing or a watered-down report, what we’ve got here is a blueprint for change, and that’s how we’re using it, to roadmap to the future.
Ross Solly: By the way it’s 14 to nine on triple six breakfast, and my guest this morning is interim Chief Police Officer Andy Hughes. I’m not surprised that there may have been some morale problems, the report found that there were no personal duress alarms for folk working in the watch house, not only that but many of the people who were working there didn’t actually know where the duress alarm that did exist was and didn’t actually know when it had last been serviced and whether it actually worked.
Andy Hughes: Well, these are training issues that I said that have been picked up now and you know that is an historical comment in the context of where we are today so yeah, I mean that was right at the time, but all that’s been addressed.
Ross Solly: So do all staff now have personal duress alarms?
Andy Hughes: Not sure about the personal duress alarms, there’s a duress alarm in the watch house and I’m sure that the staff now where it is now.
Ross Solly: I’ve never been in our watch house.
Andy Hughes: I’m pleased to hear that.
Ross Solly: Touch wood. Although I have got exhibit A today which is the result of a random breath test. May I commend your officers this morning for their thoroughness. I was random breath tested this morning on the way to work at a quarter past four this morning.
Andy Hughes: Oh good, good to see they’re out and about.
Ross Solly: Yes indeed and I did pass. But what I was going to say is I’ve not been into a watch house, my only real knowledge of it is what I see on The Bill and I see there the personal duress alarms which seem to be a fairly important part of someone who works in a watch house or a lockup areas repertoire.
Andy Hughes: Yeah we have a number of staff, our watch house is relatively small by international standards, reflecting I guess the size of Canberra but certainly some larger watch houses in big cities it’s very important and they are massively busy if you go to New York or LA or even Sydney, huge staff, massive turnover of people through the watch house; ours is relatively quiet, I mean even though we’ve had over 30,000 people, at an international level that’s relatively modest.
Ross Solly: This may be a difficult question for you to answer because you’ve only been the job now for six weeks, but it has to be asked. How did it get like this, who took their eye off the ball and I’m assuming that because of some of the problems outlined by the Ombudsman this is how some of these problems have been allowed to occur, this is how some of the issues which are now and I know a couple of them are before the courts, have been allowed to occur?
Andy Hughes: I’m not going to make that connection. I mean,obviously you’re right to point out these are matters before the court and all that undoubtedly will be taken into account. But, how did it happen? Well, the report doesn’t actually look at that, that wasn’t as I understand it within the original terms of reference to sort of track how we got to where we are. What it looks at is where we are, what we need to do about it, and that’s the most important thing. I mean as I’ve already said publicly, you can look at the whole range of factors as to why we may be where we are, and it’s largely conjecture because I wasn’t here for the whole period so it’s a complex issue, we except that we are not where we need to be and we’ve already made huge inroads to get where we need to be so that’s what I’m looking at; I’m looking at the future, I’m not looking at to blame anyone, there’s no point in that.
Ross Solly: It’s been neglected though hasn’t it?
Andy Hughes: Um, I think it certainly hasn’t had the attention that it needed and that’s quite evident and we’re conscious of that. But the new arrangements in place will ensure that we don’t get to this point again.
Ross Solly: What sort of timeframe have you given yourself and the force itself to turn things around and to have as many of these recommendations as possible? I know you mentioned some of them are there already.
Andy Hughes: Well look that’s right, it’s ongoing, we are required to report back to the steering committee in December and that’s our target date to get as much of this bedded down as possible. Some of the recommendations though are outside the control of ACT Policing, for example one will require a policy decision of government in respect of the longer term and that is how we staff the watch house; is it appropriate that police do it, is there a better model, in some jurisdictions in Australia have a hybrid model with civilians and police, and in others it’s all Corrective Services. These are policy issues for government; they are aware of this, the Minister is aware of this and I’m sure that they will be considering in due course.
Ross Solly: The recommendation that maybe a nurse be employed in the watch house, does that come to you, down to you or is that a ministerial?
Andy Hughes: No, no as I’ve mentioned, we have commenced discussions with ACT Health on this issue, about access to a nurse. I don’t know, I’m not convinced we need a fulltime nurse I have to say, because it’s not the busiest watch house in the world, but certainly ready access to a nurse to deliver medication or to do some examinations as required I think is required I think is important.
Ross Solly: Now, as you’ve mentioned, you been in the job for six weeks. I understand you went out on the beat just recently.
Andy Hughes: On Friday night.
Ross Solly: Friday night, how was that?
Andy Hughes: Oh great, really good, really good to work with the guys and girls of ACT Policing, I had a good night. Learnt a lot. You know things change in time and no, it was very good and importantly the town, although we had in excess of 40 arrests, by and large the town was quite and the crowds were out enjoying themselves despite the cold weather and it was a quite night.
Ross Solly: Forty arrests in one night?
Andy Hughes: Oh sorry, over the weekend.
Ross Solly: Oh ok, I was going to say 40 arrests in one night that seems like a lot.
Andy Hughes: Friday and Saturday night there were 42 from arising from this operation, and a number of drink-drivers, we had a very disappointing, out of 92 random breath tests I think was and we had about eleven, there was eleven positive which is terrible. I don’t know when the message is going to get through to people, you cannot drink and drive. It’s just, you’re going to get caught.
Ross Solly: And can I thank you for coming in this morning to talk to us.
Andy Hughes: It’s my pleasure Ross.
Ross Solly: You are the interim Chief Police Officer, can I ask you, it’s probably highly inappropriate that I do ask you, but I’m going to anyway. Do you want the job full time? And what is happening in that regard?
Andy Hughes: Oh ok, well look.
Ross Solly: I know there was talk that you might be going overseas again?
Andy Hughes: Well, that’s remains to be seen. Before Audrey’s tragic death I was on leave and my name had gone forward to the United Nations in New York for a job there in police peacekeeping in charge of police peacekeeping for the UN. And through the process I’ve been short listed, I’m not the only one short listed but I’ve been short listed and we’re waiting to hear, I think that decision is imminent but that’s a matter for the UN. So the Commissioner wisely decided that rather than appoint me as a Chief Police Officer and all the fanfare that may accompany that, and then leave going offshore, people will be wondering what’s going on. It really was a case of a phone call on leave explaining what’s happened with Audrey and after all the shock and the grief, would you come back and take over for a period of time and of course I quickly accepted that, and I’ve made it known to the Commissioner, I don’t know how all this will pan out but I’d be happy to stay in ACT Policing, it’s a great place to work and the people really make it.
Ross Solly: Well good luck, ACT Policing one day, United Nations the next.
Andy Hughes: Possibly.
Ross Solly: What would be your brief if you got that job?
Andy Hughes: It’s director of policing, peacekeeping around the world. There’s 17 missions and by the end of the year with Darfur there’ll probably be in excess of 17,000 police, so it’s quite a big job.
Ross Solly: Yeah, well good luck with it. We’re always proud of course when Canberrans do well on the international stage.
Andy Hughes: Thanks Ross.
Ross Solly: And it sounds like you are well and truly in the running. Thank you for that and we obviously will keep across this story and when the update is given later this year on the watch houses, maybe we can get you or whoever’s in the job at that stage in to.
Andy Hughes: I’m sure that will happen, no problems.
Ross Solly: Thank you for coming in.
Andy Hughes: Ok my pleasure.
Ends//